Optimized Applications

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Knightmare
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Optimized Applications

Post by Knightmare » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:34 am

Ok. This thread is for the discussion of Optimized Applications on the projects that allow them.

Be it which projects have new versions out, or people on the team that are going to take a shot at creating optimized apps for certain projects...the discussion of such should go here.
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Post by Dark Angel » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:11 am

Good deal KM thanks for starting a thread maybe we can learn a bit from each other.
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Post by Knightmare » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:19 am

Well. There have been a couple of people who have expressed at least a passing interest in putting on their programming hat and giving it a try.

I figure this will be a good place for them to chat about it.

It may also be a good place to put the apps themselves if/when they get one written.
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:35 am

Just chat about or moan and whinge and generally be a pain?
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Post by Labbie » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:41 am

Gavin Shaw wrote:moan and whinge and generally be a pain?
That's my job, you're not old enough to be good at it yet.
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Post by Knightmare » Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:12 am

Labbie wrote:
Gavin Shaw wrote:moan and whinge and generally be a pain?
That's my job, you're not old enough to be good at it yet.
Yep. Labbie is our resident expert in that area....lmao
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Post by Dances with Werewolves » Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:28 am

I'll help with testing for anyone intrested. 64bit or 32bit when the time comes.
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Post by debs3759 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:15 am

I hope this thread will be mostly about apps that are available or being worked on by team members, so it will not be too difficult to sift through and find useful info (unless, of course, KM wants to keep the initial post updated with info on what is available?)

I for one will, once I get my head around using MinGW (which I will start working with tonight) would be grateful for details of any app that is open-source. so I can look at what options might be open for us :)
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Post by sdl735 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:53 am

Dances with Werewolves wrote:I'll help with testing for anyone intrested. 64bit or 32bit when the time comes.
ditto here 32 bit windoze
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Post by Dark Angel » Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:53 pm

I'm with Deb's on this one...if we are going to try this I think this needs to be more of a technical thread and less of a chat thread unless it's chatting about the technical side of it...I'd like to see it be a place for technical questions and sharing of information regarding technical...ie builds, code, and tricks to working the code...If it is flooded with people then it will be very hard to sift through and will become more like a SETI thread on the subject. I as well as some others are going to try to port some different builds and we will need to share data. Hopefully we can get something working for the group.
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Post by Sarge_II » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:31 pm

First question: for which projects is this possible?
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Post by motionSymmetry » Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:12 pm

here are a coupla links for what people might need. at some point it might be a good idea to collect all the links we have together in one post - platform IDEs, app sources, etc:

for windows, Visual Studio Express 2008 (about 2 gig for the .iso image):

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/deta ... laylang=en

for mac (sign up to apple developer's (it's free), goto downloads, go to developer tools, get Xcode for your OS, about 1 gig for the image):

https://connect.apple.com/
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Post by Knightmare » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:08 pm

debs3759 wrote:I hope this thread will be mostly about apps that are available or being worked on by team members, so it will not be too difficult to sift through and find useful info (unless, of course, KM wants to keep the initial post updated with info on what is available?)
That was the intention of the thread. Gavin suggested I start a thread for the optimized apps and for those who may want to delve into creating some to discuss doing so.

What I can do is this. If there is an opti app available, I can edit the original post I made with the info on where to find it. That will also be an option for the apps created by the folks here.

I figure that will keep them easy to find for those that want them. It would be a lot easier than having to try to sift through the thread ( once it gets to a few pages ) trying to find the necessary info about where to get the application.

Just PM me the info you have. Such as an opti app for MilkyWay, an opti app for SETI, test applications from the people making them here, or any other app for a project with open source.

You can also PM me with info about which projects code is open source and I'll see about making a post to keep things separated.

What I will most likely do is create another thread, but just put the info I get sent to me and post it there, keeping the thread locked for posting.
I for one will, once I get my head around using MinGW (which I will start working with tonight) would be grateful for details of any app that is open-source. so I can look at what options might be open for us :)
Debs, the effort, regardless of whether any opti apps come out of it or not, will be highly appreciated.

Thanks for being willing to give it a shot. :smt023
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Post by Knightmare » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:09 pm

Sarge_II wrote:First question: for which projects is this possible?
That is one of the things we need to determine. I don't know of anywhere that contains a list of the projects who make their code open source.
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Post by Sarge_II » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:30 pm

Knightmare wrote:
Sarge_II wrote:First question: for which projects is this possible?
That is one of the things we need to determine. I don't know of anywhere that contains a list of the projects who make their code open source.
Some links that could possibly help in beginning to answer that question:

Yahoo results
Google Results
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Post by Knightmare » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:45 pm

Looks like one way of obtaining source code is to ask the project developers for access to it.

I could go through the projects and try to find out who the developers are, and ask them for permission.

However, I don't want to do that for the time being.

Let's find out, first, whether our resident programmers come up with apps for the project that we were originally discussing, MilkyWay

If they can, and they find the effort to be not too much to handle, they can let me know if they would like me to start fishing for other projects' source code.

I can then come up, if needed, with a " boilerplate " request to send out to the project devs.
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Post by Sarge_II » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:51 pm

Knightmare wrote:Looks like one way of obtaining source code is to ask the project developers for access to it.

I could go through the projects and try to find out who the developers are, and ask them for permission.

However, I don't want to do that for the time being.

Let's find out, first, whether our resident programmers come up with apps for the project that we were originally discussing, MilkyWay

If they can, and they find the effort to be not too much to handle, they can let me know if they would like me to start fishing for other projects' source code.

I can then come up, if needed, with a " boilerplate " request to send out to the project devs.
Reasonable plan. MW as the guinea pig.
(Never heard the phrase "biolerplate request.")
Anyway, to anyone reading this thread with programming experience and wanting to give this a try, as I've said, I have some programming experience, though I do have my doubts it's applicable based on the discussions so far.
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Post by Knightmare » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:21 pm

The " boilerplate " is basically defined as a repeated request.

I would just write out a request for the source code, then copy that request into a Notepad file.

From that file, I would copy/paste the request into a private message to the developer of the projects.

That way, I don't have to keep typing out the same request for all 65 projects we are involved in.
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Post by danielmid » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:12 pm

I've been trying all afternoon and this stuff is way over my head. Using Visual Studio 2008 and the Milkway source code and the BOINC source code, I can't figure it out. I even have Intel's compiler installed for both 32 and 64 bit compiling. I think I have all the right tools, just not the know-how at this point.
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Post by Knightmare » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:15 pm

I know the feeling Dan. Looking at that stuff may as well be trying to read Arabic for me.
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:23 pm

I will be downloading VS2008 today (when I get to uni).

Then I'll try to install it. And maybe see what happens.

MW is now up to 0.16 so new version of code to download. Travis also has no idea of what is used to compile the Win apps as Dave does that and I guess Travis hasn't bothered to ask...

Travis also recommended this page for Windows. I will have a proper look at it later. But I will have to fit this into my spare time.
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Post by danielmid » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:29 pm

Yeah I read through all of that. Didn't help a whole lot..
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Post by debs3759 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:49 pm

Gavin Shaw wrote:Travis also recommended this page for Windows. I will have a proper look at it later. But I will have to fit this into my spare time.
I have taken a look at that, and as a result did a search on the MSDN site for "Visual C++ Express" (as the link on that page is no longer valid). I got:

http://www.microsoft.com/express/download/, from which I am currently downloading the ISO. I will have to download some SDKs as well in order to use it to create non .NET apps, but that should be trivial :)

I'm also looking into getting hold of a working copy of the full version Visual Studio in order to try that out (mainly due to MinGW and cygwin not appearing to generate 64-bit apps).

I'll keep everyone updated of course over the next few days if I get much joy from any of the options :)
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:20 am

Okay. I'm downloading VS2008 Pro.
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Post by Dark Angel » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:30 am

I'm gonna persue the Mac side...since I'm new to all this I will likely have to do some tinerking and reading but I'm willing to give it a try to see what comes of it...the new Mactel's can't be that far off from the PC code as they are vertually the same computer guts...just different instructions for the OS.
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:16 am

Gavin Shaw wrote:Okay. I'm downloading VS2008 Pro.
Correction. I just downloaded and installed the MSDN Library for 2008. After all that...

The computer downloaded the wrong thing. I thought 1.9 GB was too small.

Can't optimise today, I have the dumb.

Down loading VS2008 Pro this time. Hmmmm, don't think I have any blank DVD's left at uni now. Hmmm, I wonder if virtual drive will work?
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Post by danielmid » Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:34 am

I have VS2008 and the Intel compiler installed, so I can try out stuff too, just lemme know if you figure something out TO try lol
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:37 am

I have finally got VS2008 installed (along with MSDN library, see early brain dead moment). I have TortoiseSVN and have checked out the trunk in the deveoplment repo.

According to the details in the boinc wiki (see http://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/wiki/CompileApp there should be some VS solution files in the win_build directory. Except there does not appear to be any by this name. There is a boinc.sln (solution file) and a wcg.sln.

So have they changed that and not updated their wiki?

I guess I have to build the project completely from scratch...
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Post by debs3759 » Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:47 pm

If anyone uses the Intel app to help with optimising, please note that when uploading. It only optimises for Intel CPUs. I read recently that it adds code to detect if there is an Intel CPU running before checking if it has the other features, and if no Intel it does not do the other checks.

Not saying that's a problem to have separate apps, just bear it in mind :)
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:39 pm

Just so you all know.

I have asked Travis to ask Dave to tell us what is used in compiling the MW app for Windows. I also asked that if there is some kind of batch / script file used to automate the process that it be included in the code release.

I guess we see if anything happens...
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Post by danielmid » Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:15 pm

Thanks Gavin, that would help greatly.
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Post by Chris S » Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:31 pm

Slight deviation from thread theme for Sarge.

BOILERPLATING

A term taken from steam engine manufacture in the 19th/20th Centuries, where engine boilers were made
from many individual boiler plates rivetted together in an overlapping sequence.

When applied to programming, it descibes the use of a library of standard functions, any of which can be
selected and assembled together to form a program, rather than having to write the whole program from
scratch.

When applied to Word Processing, it's the use of a standard header page, introductory page, contents page,
index etc which can be used to compile a report or document quicker than writing it all out from the beginning.
These days we know it as using templates.

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Post by Gavin Shaw » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:04 pm

Well nothing yet from my request over at MW.

So I went looking and went to see if they guys who made the opt. apps for Seti had any instructions. So over at the lunatic/kwsn site I found this page.

Gives some idea of what could be involved if you use VS. However, I am not sure whether MW uses the Intel compilers. I think they only use the gcc / g++ compilers from what I have read...
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Post by Sarge_II » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:29 am

Gavin Shaw wrote:Well nothing yet from my request over at MW.

So I went looking and went to see if they guys who made the opt. apps for Seti had any instructions. So over at the lunatic/kwsn site I found this page.

Gives some idea of what could be involved if you use VS. However, I am not sure whether MW uses the Intel compilers. I think they only use the gcc / g++ compilers from what I have read...
Again, some limited experience/knowledge here, so maybe this question is ridiculous, but: does it matter, Gavin? The idea is to have the apps optimize based on CPU, right? So, if it's a type of intel, that's what counts, not the compiler type?
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Post by Gavin Shaw » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:41 am

Its more a matter of knowing the environment they use. Also if we can get the windows version of their 'make' file then it makes it much easier to compile the apps as we will know all of the dependencies etc. One reason is that the apps import stuff from the boinc api, but what else? Trying to find out if there are any other libraries etc that are used during compile.

And then the Intel compilers don't do to well for AMD CPU's and I think we have some on the time. So having a non intel compiler might be useful for that...
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