Globalisation (Good or Bad?)

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Globalisation (Good or Bad?)

Post by Enigma » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:18 am

Whether you are for it, or against it globalisation is occurring at an alarming rate.

So what is it? To borrow a definition "....primarily economic phenomenon, involving the increasing interaction, or integration, of national economic systems through the growth in international trade, investment and capital flows.

.... a rapid increase in cross-border social, cultural and technological exchange."

Essentially that globalisation involves the change to economic, social, and political borders, traditionally limited to within a countries sovereign borders slowly vanish.

Definition from WIKI Globalisation

In todays paper, i read that DELL computers will be setting up its first non U.S. based technical support and service centre in Malaysia. Employing approx 1,000 staff to serve its global customer base. This is a practical real-world if you like example of globalisation in practice from a multinational. Malaysians employed by a U.S. based multinational to service customers world wide. Here we see the change in labour demand from the U.S. market to a foreign market.

Another real world example of globalisation is the amount of manufactured goods produced in China and exported to various countries. Evidence provided in trade imbalance between the U.S.A, Europe and China.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

Perhaps it depends on your perspective.
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Post by Knightmare » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:24 pm

Well...my perspective is from one of the states that has been hit the hardest by the globalization phenomenon.

We have lost an awful lot of jobs and have found ourselves in the position of having the worst economy in the US except for two states.

Nobody is going to convince me anytime soon that globalisation is a good thing for this country.
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Post by BrainSmashR » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:55 pm

Of course it's not good for our country, but this is what happens when the government passes laws that make the individual, the environment, the consumer, and basically everything more important than the business.

Minimum wage was just jacked about 2 more dollars (thanks to those that vote Dumbocrat)....Let's say you are a business owner. You can keep your company here and your costs increase by 1/3 or, thanks to NAFTA, you can move your manufacturing plant to Mexico and cut your expenses by a 1/3.

That's a no brainer....
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Post by Knightmare » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:56 pm

Yep. Especially the fact that you can just pack up stakes without any kind of penalty for doing so.

* edit * Didn't ole George say a few years ago that companies moving overseas was going to help create more, higher paying jobs here in the US??? * edit *
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Post by Enigma » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:56 pm

Knightmare wrote:Well...my perspective is from one of the states that has been hit the hardest by the globalization phenomenon.

We have lost an awful lot of jobs and have found ourselves in the position of having the worst economy in the US except for two states.

Nobody is going to convince me anytime soon that globalisation is a good thing for this country.
KM, do you know what kind of jobs were lost, were they in a particular sector, or industry or.....???

@BSR yeah, but could it be argued that some kinds of manufacturing should go offshore? For example if the process cannot be automated and is very labour intensive, then send it where the labour is cheap (S.A. China etc) hi-tech manufacturing should stay....

However there is still a problem with employment, unless the country moves to a totally highly educated and skilled workforce (perhaps this is not possible). This is what Singapore has done (admittedly their country are the size of a postage stamp) since they have not natural resources to speak of.

The thing that gets me about globalisation is that it tends to be driven by multinationals competing with each other. It is not being 'managed' by any entity in any kind of systematic fashion it is being left to 'free market' forces. This is a little scary when greedy corporations are involved as they won't give a crap if you are unemployed/able or can't feed your family.

Here is an example, IBM cannot compete with DELL in the PC Space so they sell their PC division off to Lenovo (China) so now what happens to all those jobs? Even if you wanted to go to Mexico or China to work the same job (for a hell of a lot less mind you) they (foreign immigration) would not let you IN. So how? The consumer wins, because IBM PC's get cheaper, but the locally displaced workers lose big-time.

Intel to build new fab plant in China I guess this makes sense if Lenovo, HP and DELL move their manufacturing bases to China.... the chips are closer to the end product.
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Post by Knightmare » Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:19 pm

Knightmare wrote:Well...my perspective is from one of the states that has been hit the hardest by the globalization phenomenon.

We have lost an awful lot of jobs and have found ourselves in the position of having the worst economy in the US except for two states.

Nobody is going to convince me anytime soon that globalisation is a good thing for this country.
Enigma wrote:KM, do you know what kind of jobs were lost, were they in a particular sector, or industry or.....???

Most of the job losses around here have been in the Manufacturing Sector. Companies have decided that it's just too expensive to build their stuff here.

Then, of course, you have the Big 3 auto makers, which is what the bulk of Michigan's economy was built on. They are having all kinds of problems keeping up with the foreign auto makers so a whole lot of the plants here have been shut down and the jobs have been sent to Mexico and elsewhere.
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Post by BrainSmashR » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:23 pm

Well Enigma, You're asking me to care about something I consider to be the fault of the individual.

I have a college education and work a manual labor job..so to speak (I'm expected to sweat when my inmates don't show up for work). The point is I have the education AND the skills one needs to be competitive in the job market, be it a supervisor position, or that of a ditch digger. As a direct result, I don't feel sorry for those that lack those skills. I mean it's great for those guys that make 100K per year writing software and I don't wish them any ill will, but the flip side of that coin is that it's not my fault they don't know which side is the working end of a shovel.

It really boils down to the choices one makes in their own life rather than what happens on the job or in the government. I work for HUD, and everyone knows that city/state/federal employees don't make a heck of a lot of money.....but at the time I accepted the job, I was the only maintenance person under the age of 50. I worked 2 years as seasonal help and the last 3 as "full-time". During that time period, we've had 3 deaths and my boss is currently in the hospital with blood clots in his leg. My future is getting brighter everyday, and we aren't about to ship people on welfare overseas.

It's not luck, it wasn't a case of being in the right place at the right time.....it's a simple matter of making sacrifices in order to secure my future.

All of that being said, I still don't fully support globalization, but at the same time I 100% support Free Enterprise and capitalism...and if the government see fit to make it cheaper for the business owner to do business out of the country, then I certainly can't fault him/her for doing so....
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Post by Enigma » Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:46 am

BrainSmashR wrote: --SNIP
It really boils down to the choices one makes in their own life rather than what happens on the job or in the government. I work for HUD, and everyone knows that city/state/federal employees don't make a heck of a lot of money.....but at the time I accepted the job, I was the only maintenance person under the age of 50. I worked 2 years as seasonal help and the last 3 as "full-time". During that time period, we've had 3 deaths and my boss is currently in the hospital with blood clots in his leg. My future is getting brighter everyday, and we aren't about to ship people on welfare overseas.
Firstly, i think its impossible to blame the individual for their choices, whether to become a software engineer or dig holes. Perhaps they chose this path because this is where their talents are. It is also impossible to predict what multinationals will do in terms of relocating their work force.
BrainSmashR wrote: It's not luck, it wasn't a case of being in the right place at the right time.....it's a simple matter of making sacrifices in order to secure my future.
Not everyone can make the sacrifices that you have made, as there simply will not be enough jobs. In a hypothetical scenario if everyone who was displaced was willing to dig holes would it work? Would the economy function?

However i would argue that there are possibly a lot of people that would find it very difficult to make the sacrifice that you have made (pride?).
BrainSmashR wrote: All of that being said, I still don't fully support globalization, but at the same time I 100% support Free Enterprise and capitalism...and if the government see fit to make it cheaper for the business owner to do business out of the country, then I certainly can't fault him/her for doing so....
Unfortunately it is non protection of the local markets (by country) which is pushing all the jobs in Western countries to the East. CHEAP unskilled labour AND CHEAP skilled labour. Perhaps this is not competitive (protectionism) but it is going to make life pretty difficult for the average joe in a Western country (Europe, U.S. AUS, NZ etc) going forward..IMO lower salaries and lower standards of living for sure.

@KM

This is exactly the point, where are the 'higher paying' jobs. In fact the growth in health care and retail industries (read consumer society) mean more LOW PAYING jobs. Retail and Healthcare industries don't actually produce anything. (except consumerism!)
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Post by BrainSmashR » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:15 am

Enigma wrote:
BrainSmashR wrote: --SNIP
It really boils down to the choices one makes in their own life rather than what happens on the job or in the government. I work for HUD, and everyone knows that city/state/federal employees don't make a heck of a lot of money.....but at the time I accepted the job, I was the only maintenance person under the age of 50. I worked 2 years as seasonal help and the last 3 as "full-time". During that time period, we've had 3 deaths and my boss is currently in the hospital with blood clots in his leg. My future is getting brighter everyday, and we aren't about to ship people on welfare overseas.
Firstly, i think its impossible to blame the individual for their choices, whether to become a software engineer or dig holes. Perhaps they chose this path because this is where their talents are. It is also impossible to predict what multinationals will do in terms of relocating their work force.
I'm pretty sure knowing how to use a shovel isn't a "talent" or something one needs a college degree to understand. In fact, I'd go as far as to say the average "coder" would refuse to accept a manual labor job because of self-esteem issues.

BTW, if you don't blame the individual for the choice they make, then exactly who do you blame?
Enigma wrote:
BrainSmashR wrote: It's not luck, it wasn't a case of being in the right place at the right time.....it's a simple matter of making sacrifices in order to secure my future.
Not everyone can make the sacrifices that you have made, as there simply will not be enough jobs. In a hypothetical scenario if everyone who was displaced was willing to dig holes would it work? Would the economy function?

However i would argue that there are possibly a lot of people that would find it very difficult to make the sacrifice that you have made (pride?).
Exactly what I stated above. The problem these people face is pride, not the ability to find work. There will always be manual labor jobs around. Mowing grass isn't being outsourced. Flipping burgers isn't being outsourced. Digging ditches isn't being outsourced.

There are hundreds of excuses for doing the wrong thing....you only need one reason to do the right thing, and pride is never the right reason.
Enigma wrote:
BrainSmashR wrote: All of that being said, I still don't fully support globalization, but at the same time I 100% support Free Enterprise and capitalism...and if the government see fit to make it cheaper for the business owner to do business out of the country, then I certainly can't fault him/her for doing so....
Unfortunately it is non protection of the local markets (by country) which is pushing all the jobs in Western countries to the East. CHEAP unskilled labour AND CHEAP skilled labour. Perhaps this is not competitive (protectionism) but it is going to make life pretty difficult for the average joe in a Western country (Europe, U.S. AUS, NZ etc) going forward..IMO lower salaries and lower standards of living for sure.
Again, you're asking me to care about something that is the fault of the individual. I made less than 24K last year. I'm repaying student loans, buying a house, own a car, have my own website, and a faster home internet connection than anyone I know in real life or online. I'm not accomplishing all that I want with pride, I'm doing it with a budget.

Of course I would prefer being a news anchor for one for the major networks, actually utilizing my education and making 3-4 times more money....but I also understand that journalism is a highly competitive field with many more failures than success stories....not unlike what we're seeing happen to people who think their pride is more important than feeding their family.

Again, I would like to see the outsourcing of jobs brought to an abrupt halt, but I am MORE in favor of capitalism and as long as that is a perfectly legal option, I can't fault the entrepreneur for taking advantage of the situation.
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Post by Enigma » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:49 am

As i said, not everyone can dig holes, mow lawns as their will not be enough jobs.

The people making the decisions as to where jobs go, are corporations not individuals so how can you blame the individual? The individual can re-invent themself as something else, yes this is their responsibility but there are only so many jobs. UNLESS investments into infrastructure and manufacturing industries are persued, what jobs will there be? However this is up to who? The corporations (who are going offshore). Unless we want nations of burger flippers, whole diggers, public servants (government employees), health care consultants and people selling you more crap that you don't need (retail). Something has to change.

Certainly corporations are accountable, but then again they don't have a choice (or do they?) as they are answerable to their (global) shareholders when profits drop. This is Capitalism and Globalisation.

What to nations with high salaries (now), high standards of living (now) do in the future when globalisation is destroying local markets?
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Post by Knightmare » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:53 am

But that's what we were told we were going to get eventually. Higher wages, higher standard of living etc.....

I am still wondering what planet the people who figured on that were from.
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Post by Enigma » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:05 am

Wealth or standards of living are relative. I am sure the standard of living in Europe or the U.S. is far better than Bolivia or Rawanda..... you've already got it i'm afraid, not happy with the result perhaps?

Inequality of wealth is another problem all together.
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Post by Knightmare » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:40 am

True enough.

We have it better than most.
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Post by BrainSmashR » Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:02 pm

If there is such a shortage of jobs here.....how come illegal immigration has become such a problem?

You see, there's not a shortage of work in America, there's an abundance of Americans who feel they are to good to get their hands dirty.....and I can blame them for that.
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Post by Enigma » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:29 am

Immigrants illegal or not without skills would be happy to fill positions in the U.S.A or any country for that matter, if they are coming from a place that is in a worse economic position/state. Even if this were not the case and all positions were filled locally without immigrants, the root of the problem is not addressed.

The point i am trying to make about globalisation is not simply a displacement in the workforce, but a displacement of SKILLED positions moving from the first world economies to 2nd or 3rd being driven by multinationals. A 100K p.a. job in manufacturting or I.T. (which went to India for example) etc is replaced with a 20K p.a. job in health care.

The long terms repercussions on the first world economies may not be very pretty.
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Post by BrainSmashR » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:05 am

It would seem the only thing we actually disagree on is who is to blame when the person who loses his job can't/won't find another.
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Post by Enigma » Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:08 am

Yup... but i will concede that the individual still has a level of responsiblity to get off their butt, swallow their pride and 'get a job' (we have this problem in Australia... big time).

I just think that the big picture is the responsibliity of the multinationals....
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Post by BrainSmashR » Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:00 am

No corporation, be they multinational or other, has any responsibility to keep any individual employed, just like your boss has no obligation or responsibility to make sure you have a job.

Has anyone ever told you that what you are suggesting is borderline communism? I mean suggesting the corporation has a responsibility other than to make a profit is one step away from having the government enforce those responsibilities.
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Post by Enigma » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:52 am

BrainSmashR wrote:No corporation, be they multinational or other, has any responsibility to keep any individual employed, just like your boss has no obligation or responsibility to make sure you have a job.

Has anyone ever told you that what you are suggesting is borderline communism? I mean suggesting the corporation has a responsibility other than to make a profit is one step away from having the government enforce those responsibilities.
I am not suggesting that a corporation HAS to KEEP any individual employed (did you know that in Australia, employment laws used to almost mandate this!)....far from it. I am suggesting that they (corporations) should keep skilled jobs onshore (rather than offshore). A profitable corporation needs to employ people to produce its goods (while ever it is in business), it is a question of WHERE they employ them and this decision (offshore) is destroying infrastructure (manufacturing and tech industries) in first world nations. This will ultimately effect every individuals prosperity (living standard in 1st world nations) due to the fact that these high paying jobs put simply, won't exist (even for those with the qualifications!).
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Post by Brian » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:12 am

I agree with that Enigma. And for this Idea that Americans will not do certain jobs is a bunch of crap. Who were doing those jobs 20-40 years ago? Americans. I remember working on a Tabacco farm when I was younger in North Carolina. In reality, Americans will work any job that pay's a livable wage. But if you can get a Mexican to cross the border and do the same job for half the wage then why keep an American on the job. And on the flip side, there are a ton of stories about how many Mexicans are exploited by working an unrealistic amout of hours, no breaks, no healthcare (which force them to the emergency rooms, and we tax payers pic up the tab), no rights at all.
Also not just the migrant worker but we are loosing our entire manufacturing base to countries accross the board. An good example is that our Universities graduate aprox. 10,000 engineers per year, while India graduates closer to 100,000 per year and China close to 1,000,000 per year. We let Japan biuld assembly plants here but we cannot do the same in their country. South Korea is the same, except we can buy their cars but they cannot buy ours without high tarrifs. No, I don't see anything positive about the so-called globalization. The corporate greed mongers pick and choose what gets traded as long as they get their shareholder value.
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Post by Enigma » Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:50 am

Mate, its not just the U.S. that is having this problem. Try Europe and Australia as well, big-time.

I have also picked fruit and put roofs on houses! But i think the U.S. situation is more complicated by the 'southern border issue' in conjunction with jobs going offshore to Asia. As you say, it comes down to how much it costs a company to 'get it done'.

For example, the new Dell call centre (the first offshore support and service centre for Dell Computers) here in Kuala Lumpur is employing phone analysts for $RM1500-2500/month or $US425-$700 you reckon people in the U.S. are going to work for this rate?? Not on your life, they can't survive. This is somewhat clear cut as to WHY jobs are displaced (right or wrong is another issue).

However when it comes to manufacturing (especially hi-tech, automated) why can't this be done in the country of origin. Australia exports lots of raw materials so we can buy back finished products! Great! What, we can't build an automated plant for producing TV's or Cars? For processes which are almost fully automated IMO they should stay at home, this way all maintenance, support and engineering remains at home.
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Post by Enigma » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:25 am

Here is another pearler, this time from NORTEL!


9:46 AM ET 02/07/07

UPDATE 2-Nortel to slash 2,900 jobs in latest cost-cutting bid

(Adds details, stock price. In U.S. dollars)

By Wojtek Dabrowski

TORONTO, Feb 7 (Reuters) - Nortel Networks Corp. will slash 2,900 jobs, or 8.5 percent of its workforce, over the next two years and shift another 1,000 employees to low-cost locations as North America's biggest maker of telephone equipment struggles to shore up its profits.

Nortel, which currently employs about 34,000 workers, said on Wednesday it will also reduce its global real estate portfolio by 500,000 square feet in 2007. This, combined with the job cuts, is expected to save the company about $400 million a year when completed, it said.

The news sent shares of Nortel jumping C$1.28, or 4.2 percent, to C$31.95, in early trading on the Toronto Stock Exchange. In New York, the stock was up $1.09 at $27.02.

"These are tough but necessary measures, and we recognize the impact they will have on affected employees," Chief Executive Mike Zafirovski said in a statement.

"However, as we roll-out the various initiatives over the next two years, every effort will be made to leverage normal attrition and redeploy affected employees to other areas of the company."

As well, Nortel said it will crimp spending on research and development to "an industry-competitive" 15 percent of total revenue.

The cuts to jobs and real estate will cost as much as $390 million, with about $300 million of that going toward the workforce reduction. About three-quarters of the costs will be booked as charges on the income statement in 2007, Nortel said.

Nortel also provided an outlook for the fourth quarter of 2006, saying it expected revenue to grow to $3.26 billion, up from $3 billion in the same quarter of 2005.

Gross margin, a key measure of the success of the company's turnaround effort, is expected to be "slightly above 40 percent of revenue," Nortel said, up from 39.4 percent a year earlier.

Nortel's joint venture with electronics maker LG Electronics Inc <066570> as well as its CDMA wireless segment, are expected to be strong contributors, the Canadian company said.

($1=$1.18 Canadian)

REUTERS
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Post by Enigma » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:15 am

BOOK REVIEW

The decline of the US economy
Three Billion New Capitalists by Clyde Prestowitz

Reviewed by Dmitry Shlapentokh

This is a first-class book with a sober and penetrating analysis of global arrangements and the US role in them. The author is well informed, with quite critical views of the future of the US.

The source of the problems is not that the US has lost its democratic innocence and plunged recklessly into the Iraq war, as bemoaned in recent books and articles by Zbigniew Brzezinski, former president Jimmy Carter's national security



adviser. Neither is it that the US retained its capitalist predatory nature and engaged in war and exploitation of the rest of the globe, including polluting the environment - the point of the American left.

The reason is the US is in the process of losing its position as the major economic power. Author Prestowitz has actually destroyed one of the essential myths of American civilization, the myth of American efficiency.

This myth has always been related to the image of capitalism - and America has been the very embodiment of capitalism. This capitalism is brutal in a social-Darwinistic way and can also be militarily weak. Indeed, for generations, Americans have agreed that they are not militaristic and can be beaten by others, but never economically.

During the Cold War, the Soviets were accepted as military but not as economic peers. And it is only now that fundamental changes are occurring - America is increasingly losing its economic standing in regard to the rest of the world. In fact, the US is starting to be pressed hard on not just one but several economic fronts, including those of whose very existence most Americans have not been aware.

This is, for example, the case with Europe. With fresh views on American/European economic rivalry, the author follows a line that one cannot easily find in the US mass media. The media usually present Europe as a stagnating, declining economy that cannot carry the heavy task of a protective safety net for Europe's citizens. This stagnant semi-socialist group of countries is juxtaposed to the dynamic, vibrant, albeit tough, America.

The author has discarded this notion. With a close look at statistical data, he has concluded that Europe is economically not far behind the US. Moreover, in some key areas, Europe is actually ahead. For example, in the author's view, the US is in a process of erosion of its industrial skeleton, while the European picture is much brighter.

Moreover, European industrial goods have retained their reputation of high quality and thus make it possible for Europeans to sell their goods to China, for example, despite what seems to be prohibitive prices because of the euro exchange rate.

With all the importance of the European economy, it is not Europe that constitutes the major threat for the American economy. The battering ram that could destroy it is coming from Asia, mostly China. The American economy is increasingly unable to compete with Asian goods, and the situation will be worse in the future.

Why is this happening? In the view of the author, it is mostly due to globalization. At the beginning of the post-Cold War era, globalization was hailed in the US as a blessing that would bring absolute economic and implicitly geopolitical domination. But the reality is quite different. And the author suggests that globalization has led to disaster for the American economy. According to his views, Asia has the ability to acquire the technology and skills to compete with the US in nearly all areas. Cheap labor makes Asian goods even more competitive.

The author is absolutely right in seeing in the spread of technology one of the major reasons for the competitiveness of Asian goods, but it is not the only one.

One would have to look closely at American society, its education, government and business to see that many of these segments have become ossified bureaucratic structures that work with exceptional inefficiency and are shielded from any control from market or government.

In many ways, the US has become similar to the USSR in the last decade of its existence, when the Soviet Union had only one first-class and efficient organization - its military force.

But, if the US economy/society in general is becoming increasingly inefficient, how can it maintain its high living standards and engage in expensive imperial adventures?

The author answers this question by pointing to America's ever-increasing borrowing from the outside world, mostly from Asia. But why do these countries continue to lend to the US? Why at some point do they not dump dollars or treasury notes? Here the author once again rightfully points to the peculiar position of the US in modern society and the reason it still has an almost free ride - at least for a while.

The global community, or at least much of it, wishes to diminish the US role in global affairs, but very few wish it to collapse. With an interdependent global economy and the dollar as the global currency, the collapse of the US would send a shock wave all over the world, leading to unpredictable and possibly global catastrophic consequences similar to those that followed the Great Depression of 1929.

Thus, the logic of self-interest has compelled the world community, including China and other Asian countries, to prop up the American economy. The problem, however, is that people in general are not always logical, and those who make predictions about the economic future of America and the world should always remember this.

Dmitry Shlapentokh, PhD, is associate professor of history, College of Liberal Arts and Sciences, Indiana University South Bend.

Three Billion New Capitalists: The Great Shift of Wealth and Power to the East by Clyde Prestowitz. New York: Basic Books, 2005. ISBN: 0465062814 Price: US$26, pages 194

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Eco ... 7Dj01.html
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Post by Brian » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:50 am

This is the cause of all the problems, read below..

It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. – Henry Ford

May I suggest that everyone who reads this message send a letter to Lou Dobbs, Mr. American Middle Class Champion, and ask him to explain exactly who owns the Federal Reserve and why we allow the Federal Reserve to continue to control our entire economy. Then ask him why he, and everyone else in the media, have refused to explain this to the American people.

As Lou says every day: “It’s time for answers!”
Write to Lou Dobbs here:
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?9

The real answer to this question is that the Federal Reserve is like a big Mafia loan shark. It owns our nation in the same way a loan shark owns his “clients!” There is absolutely no difference between the two.

No matter what the situation, whenever there is news related to the Federal Reserve a big, loud, coordinated, conspiratorial lie of omission is committed by every single news outlet in our nation. What is this lie…it is keeping up the false impression that the Federal Reserve is part of our government! The Fed is a private, for profit bank, that controls our government and economy. They control the money supply, inflation, depression, recessions, etc. They are not accountable to Congress, the executive branch or anyone in government.

The revolutionary war was started primarily to get away from a similar situation in England where the Bank of England held the same control over their nation. Revolutionaries realized this and they put an end to it. Unfortunately some traitors in the Senate reversed our true liberation and now we have a private bank controlling our personal financial status.

Let me ask you a simple question: what country in its right mind would create a system that would force it to lend itself money and have to repay the money WITH INTEREST? What country would charge itself interest? What nation would put itself out of business by making it bankrupt because of interest? The answer is none! America is not charging itself interest on its debt, the privately owned central bankers are doing this and they are hiding in plain sight! Congress (with the exception of Ron Paul), every US president and every single member of the corporate media are either part of the conspiracy or just plain stupid!

Two presidents tried to stop this outrage…and they were both assassinated. Lincoln was set to bypass the central banks in order to finance the Civil War. The banks were going to charge him 24-36% interest on the loans. So Lincoln had Congress pass a law authorizing the printing of full legal tender. These “treasury notes” would be used to finance the war. Lincoln wrote: “… (we) gave the people of this Republic the greatest blessing they have ever had - their own paper money to pay their own debts…” Now go and research the person who supposedly killed Lincoln and how he relates to bankers.

After Lincoln was assassinated Congress revoked the Greenback Law and enacted the National Banking Act. The national banks were to be privately owned and the national bank notes they issued were to be interest-bearing. The Act also provided that the Greenbacks should be retired from circulation as soon as they came back to the Treasury in payment of taxes.

John F. Kennedy was the next brave man to take on the Federal Reserve. On June 4, 1963, President Kennedy signed a Presidential Executive Order 11110. This order virtually stripped the Federal Reserve Bank of its power to loan money to the United States Government at interest. Kennedy declared the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank would soon be out of business. This order gave the Treasury Department the authority to issue silver certificates against any silver in the treasury. This executive order still stands today. No president since has had the courage to invoke it for it would mean their demise. The US government is a front for the real controllers…the central bankers.

Debt keeps the central banks in control of the world. Nations that eliminate their debt end up on the hit list. When you see nations “liberated” by the US or its allies what normally follows is a central bank extending loans to these liberated nations. The World Bank always comes to the rescue. What a joke…this is like having a loan shark come to the rescue of someone who needs food money for his kids!

War is the single biggest money making business for the central bankers. Nations go into tremendous debt to finance war. Interestingly enough, but in no way surprising to those of us who know better, the architects of both Vietnam and the Iraq invasion both went on to become the head of the World Bank; Robert McNamara and Paul Wolfowitz. It is the central banks that push the world towards military conflict.

Look at your money…it say “Federal Reserve Note!” It is not an American currency backed by an asset. It is fiat currency backed by nothing.

The Federal Reserve is a private bank that owns the sole right to dictate monetary policy for our nation. This is the biggest scam and conspiracy on our planet and we must make this part of our daily discussion. Ask questions, and DEMAND answers!

Please…start by writing to Lou Dobbs!
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?9

Think about it!
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Post by Enigma » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:55 am

Brian,

With reference to the FED....If you have time, take a look at this

http://video.google.com/url?docid=-4662 ... he+federal
+reserve&vidurl=http://video.google.com/videoplay%3Fdoc ... %2Bbanking
%2Band%2Bthe%2Bfederal%2Breserve&usg=AL29H214tSKjG-z0L0m6QilY5ZlPTWE18Q

(i have broken this link to avoid stretching the thread)

or this

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... al+reserve

I have not done enough research into other central banks, however is suspect there are a number in Europe that are also private. The fact that they are private entities IS scary.
Last edited by Enigma on Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sarge_II » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:18 am

Yes.
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Post by Sarge_II » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:18 am

No.
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Post by Enigma » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:53 am

UPDATE 1-China approves $2.5 bln chip plant by Intel

(Adds background)

BEIJING, March 13 (Reuters) - China's cabinet has approved a a plan by Intel Corp. to invest $2.5 billion in a microchip plant in the northeastern city of Dalian, the National Development and Reform Commission said on Tuesday.

The 12-inch wafer plant will have a monthly capacity of 52,000 chips and use 90-nanometre technology to produce central processing units (CPU), said the NDRC on its Web site.

The investment is Intel's first such manufacturing facility in China, but comes after it has invested about $1 billion in the mainland, where it has major test and assembly plants in Shanghai and the interior city of Chengdu.

Chip sophistication is measured by how small individual circuits are, with 65-nanometre considered one of the most advanced technologies in mass production.

Intel is in the midst of a major overhaul, including price and job cuts and new product roll-outs, as it works to stave off recent advances by rival Advanced Micro Devices Inc., which has gained market share in the last few years.

Intel, which entered the China market in 1985, has more than 6,000 employees working on assembly, testing, research and development, and sales and marketing in 16 cities there, according to the company's Web site.

Until now, most foreign chip makers have used China for lower-technology test and assembly work, with few doing more sophisticated production in the market.

Intel said it would make China an independent sales and marketing region from the beginning of 2007, underlining the country's growing importance as the company's second-largest consumer market after the United States. (US$=7.74 yuan)

REUTERS
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Post by Thorin » Sat May 19, 2007 1:09 pm

In my opinion, globalization is not good for any country. Neither for the rich ones where the unemployment rate is raising because the companies go out to cheaper places, nor for the poorer countries which are treated like colonies, having to accept mono-culture, and harsh conditions from the industrial companies to keep them in their countries.
In my opinion, each country should produce by themselves what they are able to, and should only import what they don't have in their own area.
When I see the European transports: in Germany, cattle farms and dairies are closed because they are "too expensive" in transport - but the milk of the huge farms is transported over a couple hundred miles to a big dairy, and the cattle is transported a couple hundred miles way to the "next" butchery, another thousand miles of road is between the dairy and the fruits and the finished yoghurt, or butter, or sausage - all this transport costs could have been saved if the small farms and dairies and butcheries etc. could have remained.
Or simple water: Each country in the EU produces enough sparkle water or still water to drawn the entire citizens. But why do some markets in Germany simply have no German water? The price? There are hundreds of miles in transport to get Italian or French water, so it should be more expensive than our own.

Or the industry: if the German bosses were patriots they would keep the companies in the country, letting the unemployment rate decrease. They talk big about the "German quality work" anyway - so what? They state that German quality were the best, but have their products produced elsewhere, just putting the label "made in Germany" on the finished product. Are they nuts?
The same is valid for US companies, French companies etc.
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Post by RetLaw » Sat May 19, 2007 4:12 pm

This issue has been made subject of the documentary The Corporation:
http://www.thecorporation.com/

I'm not certain, whether it is really possible to reduce anything to just the duality of good or bad...
...maybe

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Post by Enigma » Sun May 20, 2007 1:12 am

Thorin wrote:In my opinion, globalization is not good for any country. Neither for the rich ones where the unemployment rate is raising because the companies go out to cheaper places, nor for the poorer countries which are treated like colonies, having to accept mono-culture, and harsh conditions from the industrial companies to keep them in their countries.
In my opinion, each country should produce by themselves what they are able to, and should only import what they don't have in their own area.
I used to think this way, until i realised that some countries could not survive and would be in permanent poverty simply because they have very limited natural resources and skills or services that no one wants. Their options would be to consolidate with neighboring countries to improve their competitiveness however there would be issues of sovereignty.

What they can export has little value compared to import costs (trade imbalance... ie. export potatoes, import VW cars).

Examples that come to mind are Cambodia,Vietnam, Guatemala and Peru.
Thorin wrote: When I see the European transports: in Germany, cattle farms and dairies are closed because they are "too expensive" in transport - but the milk of the huge farms is transported over a couple hundred miles to a big dairy, and the cattle is transported a couple hundred miles way to the "next" butchery, another thousand miles of road is between the dairy and the fruits and the finished yoghurt, or butter, or sausage - all this transport costs could have been saved if the small farms and dairies and butcheries etc. could have remained.
Or simple water: Each country in the EU produces enough sparkle water or still water to drawn the entire citizens. But why do some markets in Germany simply have no German water? The price? There are hundreds of miles in transport to get Italian or French water, so it should be more expensive than our own.

Or the industry: if the German bosses were patriots they would keep the companies in the country, letting the unemployment rate decrease. They talk big about the "German quality work" anyway - so what? They state that German quality were the best, but have their products produced elsewhere, just putting the label "made in Germany" on the finished product. Are they nuts?
The same is valid for US companies, French companies etc.
I think that food is an exception and should not be 'outsourced' at any cost (its too dangerous to be dependent on another country for food).

I guess the counter argument is that if the poorer countries are doing all the grunt work (far cheaper than the rich countries), the wealthy countries can get on with more productive work? This would include research, new technologies and science etc the question is, can the majority of people be employed in these industries?

Also with an aging population (in Europe, U.S. and Australia), we are seeing more and more people move into the 'health care industry' (which isn't an industry at all as it doesn't produce anything). The "Retail industry" is also growing at a ridiculous rate (which also don't really produce anything since the source product is produced somewhere else) to support evermore consumerism.
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Post by Enigma » Sun May 20, 2007 1:14 am

RetLaw wrote:This issue has been made subject of the documentary The Corporation:
http://www.thecorporation.com/

I'm not certain, whether it is really possible to reduce anything to just the duality of good or bad...
note seen this one... will check it out. TQ.
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Post by Thorin » Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:56 pm

I think you CAN reduce any decision to the duality of good or bad, IF you ask or explain good or bad for whose purpose.
While something is good for the bank accounts of the entrepreneurs, it can be bad for their (soon-to-be ex-) employees, and even for the entire nation.
As for me, globalism, as it is done nowadays, is entirely bad.
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Post by Enigma » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:03 am

Thorin wrote:I think you CAN reduce any decision to the duality of good or bad, IF you ask or explain good or bad for whose purpose.
While something is good for the bank accounts of the entrepreneurs, it can be bad for their (soon-to-be ex-) employees, and even for the entire nation.
As for me, globalism, as it is done nowadays, is entirely bad.
I totally disagree.

Very few problems (beyond mathematics) are pure black/white situations especially when it comes to humans. This is where dictators and genocidal leaders get their insane polarised views/thinking that endanger people and society as a whole. They over simply very complex problems (call them simplistic models of thought) which result usually in dangerously simplistic (read brutal) solutions.

As for Entrepreneurs, I would argue that they create work and create problems and opportunities all at the same time, is this good or bad, its both and definitely a grey problem (neither good/bad, black/white).

As for globalism, its here now and the world is moving more and more in this direction. Technology is really driving it everyday and it is not about to stop.

So what are you going to do?
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Post by Knightmare » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:27 am

I'm gonna keep driving my forklift until the company I work for decides that they can make more money by subcontracting the packaging of the sugar we produce. :-)
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